Journals of the Senate
53 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2004, Canada
Journals of the Senate
3rd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 13
Friday, February 20, 2004
9:00 a.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Graham, Harb, Hays, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, LaPierre, Lapointe, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Mercer, Milne, Moore, Morin, Munson, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Smith, Stollery, Stratton, Trenholme Counsell
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, *Cordy, Day, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Fairbairn, Ferretti Barth, Finnerty, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Graham, Harb, Hays, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kenny, Kinsella, *Kirby, LaPierre, Lapointe, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Mercer, Milne, Moore, Morin, Munson, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robertson, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Smith, Stollery, Stratton, Trenholme Counsell
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Motions
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne:
That, pursuant to Rule 39, not more than a further six hours of debate be allocated for the consideration of the second reading stage of Bill C-5, An Act respecting the effective date of the representation order of 2003;
That when debate comes to an end or when the time provided for the debate has expired, the Speaker shall interrupt, if required, any proceedings then before the Senate and put forthwith and successively every question necessary to dispose of the second reading stage of the said Bill; and
That any recorded vote or votes on the said question be taken in accordance with Rule 39(4).
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Smith, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-5, An Act respecting the effective date of the representation order of 2003.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.
The Bill was then read the second time, on division.
A point of order was raised with respect to the request for a standing vote.
Debate.
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The sitting was suspended.
The sitting resumed.
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With leave of the Senate,
It was agreed that the Senate proceed to a standing vote on the motion for the second reading of Bill C-5.
A point of order was raised on the application of Rule 39(4)(b).
After debate,
The Speaker reserved his decision.
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At 9:50 a.m. the sitting was suspended.
At 10:45 a.m. the sitting resumed.
SPEAKER'S RULING
Honourable senators, thank you for your patience. I now have all the material that I require to make a ruling on the question before us. It did take a bit of time to obtain the transcripts that I wanted.
It is the point of order of Senator Austin that as there is no mutual understanding with respect to when the standing vote on the second reading of Bill C-5 is to occur, that is, either now or at 5:30 p.m. this afternoon, there is no agreement. Therefore, we will proceed to the Speaker's ruling on the question of whether two senators had indeed risen in time to request a standing vote on Bill C-5.
In making a determination, honourable senators, the Speaker can only refer to the record of what was said by honourable senators while the Senate was in session. I have requested the relevant parts of the record — which I know honourable senators do not have — from the reporters. There were a number of interventions, but I will quote from the relevant portions.
Following my seeing Senator Rompkey and before I gave a ruling on the first matter on which a ruling was requested, the request was made by Senators Rompkey and Kinsella to have the floor for the purpose of determining what would have been the subject matter of the ruling. Senator Rompkey's words were:
Senator Rompkey: We on this side would agree that, indeed, there were members opposite who indicated that they did want a recorded vote. We would be agreeable to one recorded vote.
Another quotation, for your information, honourable senators, is Senator Kinsella's comment, which followed almost immediately:
Senator Kinsella: Therefore we are simply at the status quo ante. The question was put. The "yeas'' had it. Two senators on this side have risen. It is now in your hands, Your Honour.
There was an intervention by Senator Prud'homme, which stood on its own. My words were that the record would show what Senator Prud'homme, an independent senator, wanted to say. I then said:
I now return to the point we were at on Bill C-5: I will say now, honourable senators: Call in the senators for a vote.
At that point, Senator Stratton rose, and that is where we started the interventions made by senators to get us to this point of order.
My ruling therefore, honourable senators, is that there was only an agreement, by the record, to have a standing vote. In the absence of any announced agreement as to when the vote is to take place, I must conclude that the vote will take place in accordance with rule 39(4)(b), which states that the vote will take place at 5:30 this afternoon.
I have decided that I am not in a position to inquire into the minds of the Deputy Leader of the Government and Deputy Leader of the Opposition as to consensus or whether they each understood the same. I have to rely on the record. Accordingly, my ruling is, as I have already said, that the vote will take place at 5:30 this afternoon.
(Accordingly, a standing vote was deferred until 5:30 p.m. today, with the bells to sound at 5:15 p.m. for fifteen minutes.)
Bills
Orders No. 2 to 6 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Motions
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Trenholme Counsell, seconded by the Honourable Senator Massicotte:
That the following Address be presented to Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada:
To Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Chancellor and Principal Companion of the Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Military Merit, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.
MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY:
We, Her Majesty's most loyal and dutiful subjects, the Senate of Canada in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Excellency for the gracious Speech which Your Excellency has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LeBreton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Atkins, Beaudoin, Cochrane, Comeau, Di Nino, Forrestall, Johnson, Kinsella, Murray, Nolin, Oliver—11
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cook, Corbin, Day, De Bané, Downe, Finnerty, Fraser, Furey, Graham, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kenny, LaPierre, Léger, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mercer, Milne, Moore, Morin, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Prud'homme, Robichaud, Rompkey, Smith, Stollery, Trenholme Counsell—39
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Cools, Gauthier—2
The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Trenholme Counsell, seconded by the Honourable Senator Massicotte:
That the following Address be presented to Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada:
To Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Chancellor and Principal Companion of the Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Military Merit, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Merit of the Police Forces, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.
MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY:
We, Her Majesty's most loyal and dutiful subjects, the Senate of Canada in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Excellency for the gracious Speech which Your Excellency has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that the motion be amended by adding:
"And the Senate regrets that the Speech from the Throne is a preview of a tired Liberal election platform, filled with empty rhetoric and vacuous promises that does nothing to address the very real problems facing Canadians who are turning to the Conservative Party to form a government that will manage with competence and govern with integrity.''
After debate,
The question was put on the motion in amendment.
Pursuant to Rule 67(2), a standing vote was deferred until Monday, February 23, 2004, at 5:30 p.m., with the bells to sound at 5:15 p.m. for fifteen minutes.
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be authorized to examine and report upon the expenditures set out in the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2004, with the exception of Parliament Vote 10b.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That the Standing Joint Committee on the Library of Parliament be authorized to examine the expenditures set out in Parliament Vote 10b of the Supplementary Estimates (B) for the fiscal year ending March 31, 2004; and
That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House accordingly.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House of the names of the Honourable Senators appointed to serve on the Standing Joint Committees as reported in the Second Report of the Committee of Selection adopted February 3, 2004.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 8 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, for the second reading of Bill C-250, An Act to amend the Criminal Code (hate propaganda).
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on division.
The Bill was then read the second time, on division.
The Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 to 4 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the Third Report of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration (budget of Transport and Communications Committee—legislation) presented in the Senate on February 19, 2004.
The Honourable Senator Bacon moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Consideration of the First Report of the Standing Joint Committee for the Scrutiny of Regulations (permanent order of reference and expenses re Rule 104) presented in the Senate on February 19, 2004.
The Honourable Senator Moore moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Furey, that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 4 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the Second Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications (budget—study on the Canadian media) presented in the Senate on February 19, 2004.
The Honourable Senator Fraser moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Jaffer, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Order No. 6 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 40, 2, 3, 24, 9 (motions) and 1 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
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Pursuant to Rule 7(2), the sitting was suspended until 5:15 p.m.
The sitting resumed.
DEFERRED VOTE
At 5:30 p.m., pursuant to Rule 39(4)(b), the Senate proceeded to the taking of the deferred standing vote on the motion of the Honourable Senator Smith, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., for the second reading of Bill C-5, An Act respecting the effective date of the representation order of 2003.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chaput, Christensen, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Day, Fairbairn, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Graham, Harb, Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kenny, LaPierre, Léger, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Mercer, Milne, Moore, Munson, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Poulin, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rompkey, Stollery, Trenholme Counsell—41
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Atkins, Beaudoin, Cochrane, Comeau, Di Nino, Forrestall, Johnson, Kinsella, LeBreton, Nolin, Oliver, Stratton—12
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Nil
Accordingly, the Bill was read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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With leave,
The Senate reverted to Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Kenny moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Furey:
That the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence have power to sit at 2:00 p.m. on Monday, February 23, 2004, even though the Senate may then be sitting, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Ordered, That Order No. 6 under ORDERS OF THE DAY, OTHER BUSINESS, Reports of Committees be again called.
Consideration of the Second Report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence (budget—study on the need for a national security policy for Canada) presented in the Senate on February 19, 2004.
The Honourable Senator Kenny moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore, that the Report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
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At 5:38 p.m., pursuant to Rule 39(5)(b), the Senate adjourned until Monday, February 23, 2004, at 2:00 p.m.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Amended summaries of the Corporate Plan for 2003-2004 to 2007-2008 and of the Operating and Capital Budgets for 2003-2004 of the Canadian Museum of Nature, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 125(4). —Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 50.
Amended summaries of the Corporate Plan for 2003-2004 to 2007-2008 and of the Operating and Capital Budgets for 2003-2004 of the Canadian Museum of Civilization Corporation, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 125(4).—Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 51.
Reports of the Blue Water Bridge Authority for the fiscal year ended August 31, 2003, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2). —Sessional Paper No. 3/37- 52.
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Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications
The name of the Honourable Senator Phalen substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Callbeck (February 18).